Profile
Perpetrator Profile.
This page will attempt to build up a likely offender profile of The Grim Sleeper using criminal profiling techniques applied to the known facts of the case.
Basic profile:
Male - based on eys witness accounts, the sexual element of the crime and DNA from crime scene.
African American - serial killers tend to kill within their own ethic group
Age range in 2008 is approx 45 - 55 (in 1988 a confirmed survivor stated his age as “30ish”). The youngest this killer could be now is around 41 assuming he was as young as 18 when the killings began.
The killer is likely to be a man in his mid-50s who frequents prostitutes and has a history of violence against women.1
He is likely to be a local resident (within 10 miles) and/or a worker in the South LA area.
He is familiar with the geography of south LA
likely to have a criminal record for assault
May have a history of sexually transmitted disease
May have low self confidence/esteem and his act of shooting from the front (into chest) provides him with the power he craves
Signature behavior:
Although not evident in most of his crimes, the killer did leave a telling clue in the form of a note placed over the face of his 7th confirmed victim Lachrica Jefferson. The Word “AIDS” may provide significant clues to the killers thought pattern and motive(s). This signature has not been noted in any of the other confirmed killings although another signature pattern in the form of covering the victims with trash is evident in almost all the other killings. Covering the victims in trash may be the killers way of further emphasizing his psychological need to clear the streets of LA of the “trash” that he perceives to be a problem. Both these signature elements suggest the killer has had harmful (to him) contact with prostitutes and he has a desire to rid the world of this harm.
The killer has displayed a significant degree of patience and self control. This assumption has some qualifiers attached. We cannot assume that the intervals between the confirmed murders were just that. The killer may have moved his activities to another area or state (or changed weapons etc.) and that many more murders have been committed by this person without a link being made so far. We CAN assume that apart from the 13 year ’sleep’ between the 1988 murder and his resumption in 2003 that the short intervals were indeed quiet times for this killer. He has demonstrated that he will kill within days of previous murders but also that he can wait for months and years.
It has been suggested that the 13 year hiatus was due to the killer receiving a lengthy prison sentence for a crime either unrelated to TGS crimes or a similar crime (murder) that has not [yet] been linked. This seems the most plausable explaination for the long period of inactivity.
As of September 2008 investigators are reviewing at least 30 unsolved murder cases for possible Grim Sleeper links and lead detective Dennis Kilcoyne estimates that “at least six of the 30 cases would be linked to the murderer”.
72 Responses to “Profile”
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:35 pm
He can’t be “likely to have a criminal record for assault because they couldn’t find a match with his DNA… I thought.
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:36 pm
Just because they couldn’t find a match (yet) doesn’t mean his DNA print is not there. Also, the process of finding a match is not like you see on CSI etc. It is a lot more complicated and much easier for matches to slip through the net. Also take into account cross-agency cooperation, tainted DNA samples, human error, computer error, cross-match error and you soon realize how difficult the process of DNA ‘fingerprinting really is.
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:37 pm
here is an informative article on DNA - take a look at the ‘pros & cons’.
http://www.idebate.org/debatabase/topic_details.php?topicID=139
DNA analysis (and the process of collecting, storing, searching and matching) is certainly not infallible.
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:37 pm
Just found this quote too:
Deputy Chief Charlie Beck said “…he is likely to be a man in his mid-50s who frequents prostitutes and has a history of violence against women.”
here’s the link:
http://www.myfoxla.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7454108&version=1& locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:37 pm
maybe he is a transient try something in las mesa area. detention,corrections,or mental
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:38 pm
The “AIDS note on the girl’s face” really gets me. I think that dude used to pick up a lot of prostitutes in the late 80’s. Aids was running rampant for many reasons. He got pissed because a prostitute gave him aids, so he started killing them. Then he got sick and it took him 13 years to get his virus under control. Now he’s still pissed…
Maybe take a look at clinics and other public resources that may have taken blood samples…
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:38 pm
I think it’s dangerous to assume his motives are anything as clear as to “clean up the trash”. I think it’s more likely he considers the victims to be “throw-away people”
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:39 pm
A ’sleep period’ between times of activity isn’t unheard of. It was long thought that the BTK killer was incarcerated or something until they discovered he had just managed to stop for a while. One of the worst things about psychotics is they don’t really play by any established rule book.
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:39 pm
Victim #7, my aunt LaCrisha “Did NOT” Have “AIDS”.. Autopsy proved other wise.. I think she may have told him she did to get him to stop, or he knew her and thought she did.. She was no Prostitute! She had a Home! She has a “family”
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:40 pm
I agree with somethoughts about the DNA.
Maybe he moved north for a while?
Starting in the mid 80’s there was a spike in Vancouver Canada of what Det. Kim Rossmo was able to determine was the activity of a serial killer preying on women involved at least peripherally in prostitution. The Det. was forced out of the department but went on to make history in the field of geographic profiling anyway. Eventually family and media pressure forced the issue and finally a perpetrator was discovered: Robert Pickton, a pig farmer, possibly responsible for 26 or more of 50 or more area murders over the previous 20 years.
Here’s the thing, Pickton claims there are at least another 14 or 15 people involved in the killings.
At least one eye witness to the ‘parties’ at the pig farm claims she saw Gary Ridgeway, the green river killer there.
Investigators flew down to interview Ridgeway in Dec 2001.
Robert Pickton was arrested two months later in Feb. 2002.
No link between the two men have been publicly established.
I noticed from this sites timeline that the sleeper ‘awoke’ to his second killing spree just one month after Pickton was arrested with the murder of little Princess Berthomieux.
Perhaps this guy never did go to sleep, perhaps he just moved to another, more hospitable hunting ground when his last victim (of round one) survived?
December 6th, 2008 at: 8:40 pm
well if thats what happens that means people should pay more attetion to what gose on b-cuz yooh dont realize until it hits close to home or in your family.
December 10th, 2008 at: 8:38 pm
I think he hates woman. I mean he shoots them in their chests, beats them, and/or sexually assaults them. Which equals to more pain. As for the man, he was shot in the head and most likely died instantly.
also I think that with the woman, he spent time looking at them and getting to know their schedules. Since most were either going home, or coming/going somewhere. It will explain why the only male victim was killed instantly, AND he is the only victim who’s body was found in the same place where he was killed. He was impulse.
December 14th, 2008 at: 2:00 pm
It is possible that he is a misogynist Ricky. But I would’nt say that he looks into his victims too much. You said “he spent time looking at them and getting to know their schedules. Since most were either going home, or coming/going somewhere”… but when people are walking the streets at night arn’t they all going or leaving somewhere? I think he just walked around blocks for a while till he found a lone person in a dark place.
December 27th, 2008 at: 7:03 am
I don’t know, I’d like to know more about the individual crime scenes before guessing how much planning or effort he put into it. Depending on the setups and what was able to be found on and around the victim we might get a guess as to how well prepared her was…
But then, having a plan and studying your victim are two different things, aren’t they?
January 3rd, 2009 at: 2:47 am
I would like to know if:
1) all the victims were sexually assaulted. If so, were they assaulted post mortem?
2) Were all the victims somehow connected to prostitution? (I do realize that a famly member of victim 7 / LaCrisha denies her involvement w/ this lifestyle).
3) The gun used in the earlier murders, is it the same gun used in the murder of the latest victim?
4) Were all of the victims known to be drug abusers? If so, what was the drug of choice?
I also would like to know more about the crime scenes. I tend to think that by covering the victims w/ trash was his way of stating what he really thinks of the victims. They were a “throw away” part of society.
I also doubt that this perp. watched his victims and developed a strategy for murder. I tend to think he went out hoping to find a victim, found someone vulnerable, and acted upon his sick urges.
January 3rd, 2009 at: 4:31 pm
Do we know if the perp. is taking anything from the victims? Many serial killers are known to take a “souveniour” from the victim. This allows them to relive the experience many times over. I did further reading about this case last night. I read where it is known that the perp. takes photos of the victims. Has this been confirmed through LE?
January 3rd, 2009 at: 11:32 pm
Z08oRQ hi nice site thx http://peace.com
January 4th, 2009 at: 1:00 am
Where exactly did you read this L? How exactly would an investigator go about proving photographs are taken at the scene?
Do you believe the Sleeper is a ‘mission oriented’ type or serial killer, or one in it for the feeling of power?
Personally, I lean towards the latter at the moment, but perhaps you have a line of thought that hasn’t occurred to me?
January 4th, 2009 at: 2:44 pm
HI D~
I got the info. about the photos from one of the news article links on this site. I will find it and post it here. I am assuming LE knew about the photos from the surviving victim. As for the mission oriented or power type serial killer, I am more inclined to go w/ the feeling of power. As soon as time permits, I will post a link to the photo website/article.
January 5th, 2009 at: 12:53 am
D,
I read the information about photos being taken on this forum. The post was made by chokeu1. I beleive he/she was referring to a show that FOX aired about TGS.
“I feel that they left out important info. The AIDS note, and the male victim. However, they did reveal that TGS had taken photos while he acted out his crime. He is a sexual sadist and a psychopath. A smooth talker and a man of many faces. I’m glad that they made case known on national TV. Hopefully it will flush him out”.
http://thegrimsleeper.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11
Hope this answers your questions. I also noticed while reading that TGS shot the surviving victim and then raped her. I would like to know if any other victims were raped post mortem and if this creep is taking anything as a souvnier. This bit of info. would help w/ the psychological mindset of TGS.
January 5th, 2009 at: 1:46 am
D,
I read the info. about the photos on this site. Below is the quote and the link. I believe the poster was referring to information that was released during an interview of the survivor. The interview was on FOX.
“I feel that they left out important info. The AIDS note, and the male victim. However, they did reveal that TGS had taken photos while he acted out his crime. He is a sexual sadist and a psychopath. A smooth talker and a man of many faces. I’m glad that they made case known on national TV. Hopefully it will flush him out”.
http://thegrimsleeper.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11
January 5th, 2009 at: 1:47 am
Forgive the double post above. I did not see the original post. I am still getting use to this forum.
My apologies.
January 5th, 2009 at: 5:10 pm
Typical serial killer. Average to above average in intelligence. Does not live in South LA in my opinion. Organized serial killers usually do not kill in there own neighberhood but may have lived or worked in South LA at one time. South LA is his hunting ground and he is very familiar with the area. South LA area is also his comfort zone. Most likely married and may have children. High school graduate may have some college. Most organized srial killers come from homes where there was mental abuse and most likely had a very dominant father figures. Likely related to someone in law enforcement and is very familair with police tactics. Likes to be close to the investigation and keeps up with media reports. He left his calling card (NOTE) on one of his victims that stated “AIDS”. Most of his victims have been prostitutes.
Like Gary Ridgeway (Green River Killer) in his mind he’s cleaning up South LA from filthy prostitutes. Our killer could be HIV positive???
We know he’s afro american and between the ages 45 to 55. He has transpertation and is most likely a skilled laborer. He dresses nice and is clean cut, He blends in very well. Although a loaner and looser he is very bright. The type of person people think could never be a serial killer.
January 6th, 2009 at: 1:22 pm
A few more observations.
You can bet he’s taking souvenirs from his victims.
Post mortem sex, possibly but I don’t think so???
Remember he dumps his victims in trash bends so he’s not able to come back a few days later to have sex with them ref: Ted Bundy & Gray Ridgeway.
Were dealing with three different crime scenes in these cases.
First-where the victims is picked up (abducted). Second-where the victim is sexually assaulted and murdered. Third-where the victim is dumped. The killer tricks his victims takes them to a isolated area (place)in his vehicle. Sexually assaults them and murders them then dumps the body in a alley (trash bend).
Photographs–The only way authorities would know if he’s taking photographs would be if he told them in a note or left some photographs. It wouldn’t surprise me if he leaves more information on his notes besides AIDS. Many organized serial killers like to toy with police and the media. They like media attention and like to be close to the investigation. It wouildn’t surprise me if he’s reading this site.
WHAT SAY YOU MR. GRIM SLEEPER?
January 6th, 2009 at: 10:17 pm
I was under the impression most serial killers had a very dominant/overbearing mother figure rather than a father. Still your input is interesting.
However, only four of the victims were proven to have connection to prostitution…he could be mistaken in some of his selections I suppose, though I doubt very much he believed the fourteen year old victim was a prostitute…
It is true though, that most serial killers believe they’re to smart to get caught…and they usually don’t just stop killing one day. They keep going until they get caught under most circumstances.
I would like to know what information was gleaned from the ‘AIDS’ not however. Fingerprints? Blood? Perhaps more was written then just that…
January 7th, 2009 at: 1:55 am
We have to remember there is one survivor. She was interviewed by FOX. (I have not seen the interview but, have seen it referenced on this site). Reportedly in the media piece produced by FOX it was reported that “TGS takes photos while he acted out his crime”. To me this implies LE has photos or the survivor told LE about the photos. The survivor also stated she was shot and then raped. That is why I was wondering about post mortem rape. I honestly forgot about Bundy and Ridgeway hiding the victims and returning later….. As for TGS not thinking the 14 year old was a prostitute, unfortunately, there are many 14yo’s who look, and act much older than their age. He probably didn’t think twice about this young lady being 14yo.
January 7th, 2009 at: 1:52 pm
BRIANNA DENISON RENO NEVADO CASE.
In the Brianna Denison case the suspect lived in Sparks Nevada 20 miles away from Reno. He worked as a pipe fitter (construction) at the University Nevada Reno near the crime sceen. My point is the suspect did not live in the area. Organized serial killers are smarter than disorganized killers. Disorganized killers will kill in their neighberhood. They usually do not plan out their crime like the organized killer. Our killer plans his murder weeks maybe even months prior to the killing. His sexual urge gets stronger and stronger until he can’t control it and then he acts out. He looks for victims of oppurtunity. A woman that is a prostitute and needs money he can lure into his trap. He may offer drugs to some of his victims in order to lure them into his trap. Once the victim get’s in his vehicle she belongs to him. I bet his car has high milage because he drives hundreds of miles looking and waiting to nab his next victim. His sexual urge builds while he’s on the hunt and then he spots a victim. Hey baby would you like to party. Tricks the victim into getting in his vehicle then uses a control weapon 25 caliber auto to control them. Organized serial killers like to use restraints (bondage). I have read nothing about restraints but I would think he used restraints on some of his victims. Victims who were shot then sexually assaulted probably resisted. I would think he gets off to sexually assaulting live victims because he likes the control fear factor. He needs to punish his victims for their sins then dump them like trash.
January 7th, 2009 at: 10:16 pm
Here is the link to the video of the survivor talking about her ordeal. The video lasts a total of 2min, 26 seconds. As I suspected, she does release the info. that TGS took photos of her. The video is titled: Extended interview w/ Jackie.
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/video_photos.cfm?id=60381
February 25th, 2009 at: 2:23 pm
Sam Super Cop-
Sparks, Nevada is not 20 miles from Reno, NV. Reno & Sparks are essentially one city and the man who killed Brianna was no more than a 20 minute ride away from the university. I know it as I live in Reno, NV. So you have no idea what your talking about.
Most of your other innuendos regarding profiling sound like a bunch of BS as well if you want my opinion.
It’s likely that the killers hiatus was do to one of the following factors:
1. In prison.
2. Moved out of area.
3. Sick / injured.
4. Simply stopped killing.
Without knowing the case it’s probably safe to assume:
1. Has intimate knowledge of the area; South LA.
2. Has intimate knowledge of prostitute locations in South LA.
3. Age is probably 45 to 55.
4. Likes killing women.
As for what makes him tick. Who the hell knows. And who the hell cares what this sick SOB thinks, just as long as they catch him and give him the death before he kills someone else.
February 26th, 2009 at: 6:46 pm
So how do they know that it isnt just a copycat that started murdering years later??? Or if it is the same guy…did he move to a different state and continue to murder…seems weird he would stop
February 26th, 2009 at: 10:01 pm
As I stated in another comment, the drug/sex trade may have led to a loved one of the killer’s demise. The “AIDS note” (while it hasn’t been confirmed that the victim was HIV+) and the fact that many victims were drug addicts or frequent the streets led me to belive this.
As someone else mentioned, a prostitute or drug user may have infected HIM with AIDS, though I actually doubt this is the case. Around the time of the first murders, we didn’t have the confidentiality laws as we do today, so he likely didn’t get treatment. Plus, treatment is rather expensive. Killers usually (but not always) can somewhat blend in with his pool of victims. As many were poor and/or prostitutes, it is unlikely he would be able to have afforded appropriate HIV medications.
It was around that time that Ryan White (a “kid” who got HIV from a transfusion) was forced to shuffle around from school to school because parents did not want their kids going to school with a person with AIDS that the murders began. HIV+ people have substantially longer lifespans due to medications, but not back when the murders started. That is why I surmised the death of a loved one.
The sole male may have known the killer and/or his identity. That is probably why he was snuffed out. I also don’t see why all of these murders are grouped together. Hopefully the police have secret details they are keeping hushed up that could lead to his capture. In the “Internet Age” of today, one can find lots of info about many things. No one wants the killer to be able to find these details and keep being two steps ahead of the cops.
February 27th, 2009 at: 3:12 am
I am really curious to how many red or orange Ford Pintos there were in the Los angeles area in the late 1980’s. If I would have to guess, I would assume that the suspect would have to havea different vehicle by now. I live in Iowa and am 30 years old and don’t recall the last time I saw a ford pinto of any color
March 2nd, 2009 at: 4:55 am
This man would be considered a organized and dis-organized serial killer. He does not have any concerns about leaving his DNA behind, yet he has a pattern of leaving the bodies in alleys. I believe in the beginning of his killings, he was still experimenting with his techniques. The male victim may have been a possible witness. The current killings seem to be also changing, as if he is still finding his style or method of killing. Serial killers always choose prostitutes because nobody notices if they go missing and the area of luring his victims is easier for him if it is poverty stricten. Does he kill during the night or day? He wears a suit in order to appear to have money to ensure business with the prostitutes. Most serial killers kill within their own race and I believe he is now in his late 50’s. This man more than likely has been married twice hence the long break between the murders. He probably has grown up children in their 20’s or 30’s and is religious. He believes he is doing the world a favor by cleaning up the streets by choosing female prostitutes. The killer more than likely had an overbearing mother and an extremely abusive father. The killer lives in the city limits and is very familiar with the alley locations. To me he may work for the a garbage or refuse company driving a trash truck, which frequently drives through alleys to empty dump bins. But what really puzzles me is if he thinks the female victims are spreading AIDS or disease, then why does he not wear a condom to protect his health? Does his DNA show symptoms of any STD’s? The key here is the lack of his own sexual health. Did the victime with the napkin on her face actually have AIDS? If so, how did he know, unless he is a doctor at a free clinic in the city limit. If the killer is as methodical as reported, he must lure the women into his vehicle, then drive to a dark alley to act upon his sexual kill and then just dumps the bodies and drives away like nothing ever happened. I believe this serial killer will get caught very soon because he is getting older and is more than likely getting burnt out. We need to be vigilant and patrol the streets near the various scenes of crimes as undercover citizens. He is bound to mess up and is ready to be caught.
I have been studying True Crime/Serial Killers for the last few months and can profile. I believe that the killer keeps up to date on any information released about his killings. He is computer saavy and probably likes to read about his murders. But what he is not aware of is that he is a diseased man himself. He is filled with filth and un-godliness. He is a hypocrit and ignorant. We will find this diseased sickened man and bring justice to the ladies who were wrongly murdered. Please feel free to discuss with me any topics that I mentioned. Oh by the way, the 911 call, did the police locate the phone number that was used. If so, was it a phone booth? Did they lift any prints off the phone booth and compare the prints to any matching prints with the DOJ?
Comment by Annee Albritton — February 27, 2009 @ 8:57 am
March 2nd, 2009 at: 5:20 am
I don’t believe we should name him the Grim Sleeper…maybe something like the “AID’s Creeper”. I think he is a piece of work trying to hurt innocent victims who can’t protect themselves, for his pretend control and power trip. games. I actually think he is gay. In the face of other women who are in a higher aristocracy then he, the AIDS CREEPER wouldn’t stand a chance. I think you are a coward and would love to meet you one on one with or without your gun, because I would kick the shit out of you old man. Come and find me you diseased strictened old goat, and see who really has the power. I would shove a baseball bat up so far up your arse you would taste wood. What a wimp. Always hiding behind the face of your little family. Did your wife cheat on you too? Did your father drink so much that he beat you senseless and then molested you. You hate women because you wish you were one of us. You despise your true identity - and you know this. Everyday you look in the mirror and see an animal infected with STD’s. Bring it in old man for you have met your match and then some….crazy low class wanna be rich dummy.
March 7th, 2009 at: 5:35 pm
I don’t think TGS has AIDs or HIV because he leaves his DNA on every victim. They (COPS)haven’t said he has it. Also the gun and DNA link him to all the crimes so there is no way there could be a copy-cat. Maybe someone close to him has it and that’s what drives his rage. And maybe he thought that the one lone man gave this person in his life the illness. It’s anyone guess. This is mine…
March 8th, 2009 at: 12:51 am
The killer left a note on one of the victims with the word “aids” on it. This guy is angry because he has contracted Aids from someone he had sex with most likely a Prostitute. This gives him the perfect reason to hate Prostitutes and go on his killing sprees….Is there any way to follow a patient that has been diagnosed with AIDS especially if the Doctor(s) think he may be a danger to others?? Maybe the Police should be looking for all Black Males between the ages of 45 to late 50’s Medical records. Find out who went in for an AIDS test and got diagnosed with the disease around the time this “Grim Sleeper” started his vicious killing spree… I think this makes sense and the 13 year hiatus may have happened because he became very sick and had to seek treatment, or he was going in to the Hospital to get treatments.
March 13th, 2009 at: 6:37 am
we are often shooting commercials in that area and it doesn’t seem like the suspect would be the poor, drug addict, or even some of the mentally challenged street folk. although it’s clear he has issues, seems like he is a working man and probably has a residence. since it is that time of year, maybe check or cross check income, property, or even business tax records that ended in cali the year of last murder with new resident filings in other cities where you may have leads for the years during his break. and then/also with new tax filings back here in LA or maybe retirement/dissability checks change of address back here to LA around the years of new murder. i’m obviously no detective. just hope any thought or ideas could help. good luck.
March 13th, 2009 at: 8:47 pm
If he had contracted Aids in the mid 80’s he would most likley be dead now. I don’t think he or anyone close to him has AIDS, I just think thats somethiong he has fixated on. I think the church link is a really good theory. The Dodge van was linked to a church too. it belonged to a congregation and was found in the parking lot. This guy is some crazy christian, who thinks he is doing Gods work. I don’t think any of these girls are really prostitutes, because I don’t think he would have sex with prostitutes.But I’m no profiler, so my opinions are just opinions.
March 14th, 2009 at: 4:57 am
Perhaps she resembled someone who he knew who had aids or he thought she looked like she had aids.. Either way he does not have aids especially if he contracted it in the 80’s he would have certainly been very very sick or dead by now. Maybe someone close to him he cared about contracted aids. Or maybe it was just a way for him to play with our heads.
April 1st, 2009 at: 8:44 pm
I think there is too much emphasis on the “aids” note. If, indeed, he is a religious person, then I think that may explain the note. Remember (according to some religious right), AIDS is a scourge by god to punish people (gay people, prostitutes) for their licentious lifestyles. And this guy is obviously twisted, so it’s not a stretch that part of his “cleaning human filth” attitude (if, indeed, that’s what it is) may be a fixation on AIDS. And I remember that in the 80’s aids was a big issue - there wasn’t a day there wasn’t an article about it in the newspaper. So this could be part of his rationale for the killing. I’m not convinced he had aids or caught it and was punishing people. I’m not sure serial killers work that rationally, or that would turn someone into a serial killer.
I do think that people commenting on here should read the LA Weekly article that broke this story and quotes extensively from the victim. According to her, he was a nice guy at first, did not attempt to solicit sex (just offered her a ride after some playful bantering) and then unexpectedly shot her. She passed out and woke up to him sexually assaulting and photographing her. This contradicts some of the people’s theories posted here as to how he goes about his business. As this is the only objective account of what he did, and there is no apparent reason in this case for him to deviate, I think we can safely assume this is how he went about his business with most if not all of the victims.
It is also unfortunate (but understandable) that we have no more information, photos, etc. as to the crime scenes themselves - how the bodies were arranged, exactly where in the alleyways did they lay (in the middle, to the side, etc.). I am trying to figure out how he did it, but if you read the survivor’s account, he just pushed her out the door (meaning the bodies would be on the side of the alleyways). And did he then get out and put the trash on them? The 911 caller said he did, but did not explain if he turned off the car, got out, etc., or if he just threw stuff on the body from the van. And the whole 911 call/van is very strange and I wonder if it all wasn’t a ruse, in which case the caller was probably the killer.
April 2nd, 2009 at: 12:58 pm
Also, dna databases are only now being coordinated between states and the feds - so even if the LAPD had his dna, it doesn’t mean that he was incarcerated somewhere else when either his dna was not taken or, if it was, it was in a separate database that the lapd did not have access to.
I think many people on this site are looking at this as if the crimes were committed today. You need to go back to the 80’s and remember what things were like back then - no cell phones, no internet, no aids cocktail drugs, far more limited called id abilities, pintos more common than now, no integration of dna databases (and, often, no dna testing at all).
April 2nd, 2009 at: 6:55 pm
BillMill: on comment #41, you’re correct in everything you say.
And as I’ve posted here, when looking at the killing turf, one has to use an OLD map… a map of the area during that time frame. Buildings are torn down or burn down, new buildings are built that obstruct views previously not obstructed, pay phones are pulled out, gas stations where those pay phones were are gone.
Looking at a present day map is helpful for an initial ‘feel’ of the situation, but an OLD map of the 1980’s is what needs to be viewed for accuracy in figuring out the story.
April 2nd, 2009 at: 7:03 pm
BillMill: on comment #40: Again, you are right in your comments.
A person who has a seriously mental illness, insanity, might not think anything about AIDS/HIV and the note with “AIDS” placed on a victim could have been nothing more than repeating what was in the news day after day in the 80’s. It could have been nothing more than a decoration of a body that he thought was enjoyable. Maybe he didn’t even write the note, but found it in the alley, and simply placed it on the bodies face.
As for the religious fanatic aspect of theory, its possible. Even people who are not insane use a very odd logic in their lives. i.e. criminals in prison, including murderers, somehow convince themselves that THEIR crime wasn’t as bad as a child molester and thus target that child molester inmate for violence. Child molesters are targeted by all the scum of society…. even though the act of child molesting isn’t as heinous as what the tormentors did. I don’t get the idea, though, the the Grim Sleeper, is a insane religious fanatic with the information known so far.
April 2nd, 2009 at: 7:08 pm
Marie on comment #36 : If the killer was so sick as to stop killing for 13 years, he wouldn’t have been able to come back & kill again due to his health. He’d look and act like a person who had been sick for 13 years.
That 13 years gap was most likely to either the killer being in prison for another crime not associated/linked to the serial murders……. OR……. he had moved away and then returned. (If the killer is ever caught and found not to have been in prison but only living outside of CA, then we’d likely see unsolved murders had been piling up in that area where he resided for those 13 years.
April 2nd, 2009 at: 7:25 pm
Thank you to Comment # 28: the link was good on AMW.
The detective explains that they don’t know what the single male victim was all about since “there could be a 100 reasons why he was killed. A partner, somebody who knew too much, witness, etc.”
I also wanted to point out something that I previously forgot to mention on another post: the Green River Killer in Washington State, who was white, killed something like an estimated 30 - 50 women (mostly prostitutes) before being captured. He was just plain insane. He actually held a job, but his coworkers considered him very odd. Most importantly, he was NOT a religious fanatic of any kind. I don’t think it was ever even reported that he was a Church going kind of guy. He merely enjoyed killing women. One police officer even commented that while he confessed on one killing that the killers eyes had a look of fondness upon rethinking about the killing.
My point is that speculators on the Grim Sleeper killings who hate religion often try to claim religion is what creates criminals and monsters …. when killers such as the Green River Killer who might be the King of Killers due to his total kills…… killed only for his insanity…. and not religion. Never confuse religion as a sole motive because its often not even part of the killer’s life.
April 2nd, 2009 at: 7:30 pm
Sam the Super Cop on comment # 27:
You are speculating way too much. That kind of thought process only throws you off track on your understanding of the matter. The sexual urge might be there, but nobody knows if that is what is driving the killer. The sexual aspect of any killing might just be a secondary issue. There are people, insane people, who engage in sex with DEAD BODIES. Its called ‘necrophilia.” A mortician was once in the news for that. He hadn’t murdered anyone, but he did have sex with dead bodies.
April 2nd, 2009 at: 7:37 pm
Sam Super Cop on comment #27:
You said that “our killer” is an “organized serial killer.”
The sole survivor victim explained that the killer was well dressed or at least moderately dressed (”dockers, nice shoes, polo shirt). She then explained that AFTER shooting her, she found him “trying to get on top of me.”
How do you figure a serial killer is “organized” when he crawls onto his BLOODY VICTIM with his street clothes on? His clothes had to have blood evidence all over them. And, even if he figured he wouldn’t be pulled over by police wearing bloody clothes, he just ruined his clothing with blood stains.
That is NOT “organized.”
You speculate way too much.
April 2nd, 2009 at: 7:45 pm
Comment # 7 by ‘Just an Idea” : There could be a 1,000 motives or none at all. The ‘throw away people’ idea is but one possibility.
Comment # 8 is correct: insane killers don’t play by the same life logic as the rest of us. To try and figure out their motive is like trying to herd a bunch of deaf cats…. it can’t be done.
I watched an interview with one captured serial killer in prison. When asked if he were released, would he kill again? He answered, ” Yes. ” When asked why, he answered, “I don’t know.” He looked normal on the outside….. but he admitted that he “did not know” his own motives except that he knew himself well enough that he would kill again if given the chance.
April 2nd, 2009 at: 7:57 pm
Dippy on comment # 3:
I briefly read your link to the debate and saw errors right off the bat, so thats not a very valid article.
Under the “Con” listing for DNA, it was stated that “Any DNA evidence must be stored in sterile and temperature controlled conditions.”
Whoever said that doesn’t understand the concept of “sterility.” If you take something from a NONsterile environment and place it in a sterile environment, the sterile environment is then contaminated. You can’t do it. i.e. collecting blood off the dirty shirt of a victim is collecting a DNA sample off of a NONsterile environment. You can’t escape the contaminants that are already there.
So, my point is that DNA testing is far more accurate than you are inferring and the basis of your example, the debate article, doesn’t provide concrete explanations otherwise.
Not wanting to belabor the point, I’ll also point out that under the “Con” list of DNA testing, it was stated that “there is room for human error” with DNA testing. So what? Name anything on this planet that involved humans where there is NOT “room for human error.”
I will also point out that DNA testing DOES NOT prove a person innocent simply because it was not found at a crime scene. Like fingerprints, a lack of DNA at a crime scene might mean simply that the killer managed to escape without leaving a DNA specimen or fingerprint behind. Criminal defense attorney’s, who will say anything to confuse the jury, often claim that their clients were “cleared” by a lack of DNA when in fact their clients were NOT “cleared” but merely not conclusively proven to be at a crime scene. The flip side of the story is that if DNA is present at a crime scene, then the donor of that specimen cannot say he wasn’t there!
I know this post is long, but I detest criminal defense attorney’s who often try to trick the jury by using the “cleared” statement when it patently false.
April 4th, 2009 at: 10:33 pm
SomeThoughts in Comment # 1: I believe in CA, the DNA database only includes those arrested AND convicted for FELONY violations. I’m not sure if an assault is always prosecuted as a felony for a first offense. Also, the CA database is only a few years old and he may have been arrested/convicted prior to the days when DNA samples were taken from felons.
JustAnIdea In Comment # 7: The killer is clearly insane or at a minimum, sociopathic. His motive for killing might not be anything that we healthy folk can understand. The “throw away people” concept might work for a sociopathic suspect, but not one who has a warped sense of reality type insanity. He might kill simply because, as the infamous Zodiac killer of the SF Bay area inferred, he felt that he grew stronger and more powerful with each kill as he absorbed them somehow as slaves in some other world.
In one video of the crime, the LAPD log was shown in closeup view…. two victims were shown to have been evaluated during autopsy as having multiple illegal drugs in their systems i.e. cocaine, morphine, and others. The killer might have some idea that drug users are a target…. for an unknown reason … rather than prostitutes.
SamTheSuperCop in Comment # 23: How do you figure the killer is an “organized serial killer” ???????
The sole survivor said he was dressed fairly well and despite that he crawled on top of her AFTER shooting her in the chest. The result: bloody evidence on him even after disposing of the body…. and ruining his clothes with blood stains. That does not sound “organized” to me. That sounds DISorganized….. a killer who acted on impulse despite the risk of being caught with the victims blood all over him.
KeystoneCop in comment # 29: Well said. Well said.
Val in comment # 38: Yeah, the killer is an “evil Christian.” lol. Your opinion. But he did kill recently…. so he can’t be dead.
April 4th, 2009 at: 11:19 pm
Gary in comments #42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50: I think you should become the leading detective!!!!!
April 5th, 2009 at: 12:25 am
Jay in comment # 51:
Never mind on my question as to the article about victim #3. I went to your link & read it through. Small mention made of a person who appears to be victim # 3 being a pimp at one time.
April 5th, 2009 at: 8:19 pm
Many good thoughts here. I love the amateur profiling.
I do think one aspect of this case hasn’t been discussed enough here (as it may have been elsewhere), and that is the male victim. He was shot in the head, but was it front or back? Was there gun powder residue at the entry wound (pressing the gun to the head) or was the shot fired from some distance? Was there a downward angle of the trajectory of the bullet (deduced from entry and exit wounds) and thus was the victim placed on his knees?
Basically, these questions would deduce whether it was an execution or not. If it was an execution style murder, I believe that the male victim would have been a person that needed to be eliminated according the killer (such as an eye witness).
Thoughts? Info?
April 5th, 2009 at: 10:54 pm
Just a thought……Could he be a pimp? Could this be how he is picking the girls? I know that they are not all prostitutes but maybe some correlation between the drug world and the prostitute world. Could the women that weren’t prostitutes, be women that refused to become one of his girls? Just some thoughts!! I hope they catch this man before he strikes again.
April 6th, 2009 at: 4:01 am
Ok, this doesn’t seem right. I watched the video for this whole thing on the home page of this website. The reporter states they have everything, mostly DNA evidence but they still can’t find it. I’m sure somehow this happend for some reason. But then the Marshall that was on the phone said that they have tried to match the prints and other evidence to regristry files in the area and found nothing and they have no possibility of linking the prints and the killers files and he isn’t registered. But then….I noticed a flaw on this page. As I this report, it showed three things that are very odd. First one stated he has a history of violence against women, the next one stated that he has a “CRIMINAL RECORD!” of assault. Obviously the cheif lied and it is very possible the killer can be captured if they do know this. They can pull the files within this time period and look at those have this same charge. Usually, you can catch criminals with this kind of information. Now for this next one. Someone posted a comment stating that maybe the reason for him killing was “The “AIDS note on the girl’s face” really gets me. I think that dude used to pick up a lot of prostitutes in the late 80’s. Aids was running rampant for many reasons. He got pissed because a prostitute gave him aids, so he started killing them. Then he got sick and it took him 13 years to get his virus under control. Now he’s still pissed…” Now see this kid has a point. And so for the killer himself to know that this was true, he would have to go to a clinic and get tested. Doctors always make a file of who is coming in for something, no matter how big or how small their problem is. So now they should know he is registered so they should check clinical records in the area around this time and pull the files of those who checked themselves for AIDs during this time period.
To me it doesn’t really seem as though the police are trying hard enough. They are skipping alot of key points.
Read my other comments on the article about the call and about the pictures of how they found the van. This whole thing should make more sense
April 6th, 2009 at: 4:08 am
The church, church van, the targets (except the male), nature of the crimes, and, especially, the hiatus in the killings, lead me to the admittedly wildly speculative idea that the killer stopped his killing in an attempt to “go straight”. Many people with sexual/fetish addictions - or any addiction - are able to stop for an extended period of time (perhaps even stop completely), but there is always a draw to return to the old ways. Often there are “false starts” to going straight before eventually getting there. I have known many people to go from the depths of depravity to the heights of religious morality, and back and forth several times. I’ve done this (the switching) myself several times. It leads to some strange behavior, and loathing or even hatred of oneself and institutions (such as maybe the church) that tried to help. The church of course probably didn’t know the depths of his crime, if it was even connected to the killer.
In short, some people seem to be thinking of a self-righteous “evil Christian” along the lines of the killer in “Se7en”, but I think he is sort of the opposite - an evil, crazy (but not insane) killer who tried to “go straight”, or even became religious. But of course he couldn’t say anything in depth or truly repent (turn himself in) because of the nature of his crimes, so - years later - the urge became uncontrollable again.
April 6th, 2009 at: 6:07 am
If he was ever booked/arrested for any crime, or incarcerated wouldn’t his finger prints be in the data base somewhere? The fact they cannot find his prints on file would lead me to believe he’s foreign. They said he has an accent, but I’ve never seen anywhere what type of accent.
If he worked on a cruise ship, he could be in port every week, and could have staked out his locations, or that area before he started killing. Cruise ship employees get days off while in port, so he could have taken his time off, and done his research. Plus cruise employees work 9 months on 3 months off. He could have stayed in the country instead of flying to his home, done all his research, got back on the ship, and once everything was in place, then started killing. So he could be very familiar with the area, but not live there. Here one day, gone the next, very hard to get caught that way.
That could also explain why most of the killings were on Weekends. Most cruise ships are in port on Weekends. He could have transitioned to different ships, different cruise lines throughout this time period. He could have transitioned to a ship doing 10 days cruises, and been in port for some of the weekday killings.
April 6th, 2009 at: 9:13 am
great thread guys. i’ve got a couple thoughts and a couple questions for you guys. my first thought is CHURCH! the 911 caller in the barbara ware case led the cops right to the doorstep, without wanting to snitch. but they didn’t really care then. who was originally questioned at that church that night? does anybody know where to find that info? names and stories?
but he probably always has an association with a church. that makes him very approachable and overlooked. also explains his reported clean cut, well-dressed demeanor. also gives him close access to the streets. specifically drug users and prostitutes. perhaps makes friends as a helpful advisor until the time is right.
he obviously has in-depth knowledge and an intimate connection with that area of South LA. his mother probably lives around there. he might not, but the fact that once the killings began again, they began in the same area is very interesting. he was probably out of town (married, serving time in the armed forces, ?) and then returned to where he grew up.
i seriously doubt he’s ever been in jail. he seems to not worry at all about leaving prints or DNA. even using the same gun for so long makes you think that he’s never really thought about trying too hard to cover his tracks. and that he’s not interested in the weapon. he’s prolly had that .25 since he was a teenager. where can you hide a gun in a city for over 20 years? ESPECIALLY if you don’t even live there the whole time. answer: your mama house!
also interesting to me…princess berthomieux, 14, noted as a runaway prostitute, was missing for 3 months before her body was found. does not match up with others where it seems like he just spent the night with them. i doubt he kept her caged up, he prolly took her in, and she prolly thought she was safe. until.
another question…janecia peters, the most recent, was shot in the back as opposed to the chest. this is most likely because she was tryin to get away, but i haven’t found it confirmed that it was the same weapon as the previous. it must be, because i didn’t think DNA evidence linked her, but maybe i just got that mixed up.
i don’t think he thinks he’s “cleaning the streets,” and even despite a religious background, that’s probably not the driving force behind the killing. he might actually really relate to his victims and he hates that. about himself and them.
the one guy definitely just got in the way. or ID’d him. you gotta think, even if it wasn’t making news back then, the whole surrounding area has always known of this going on. shit, i wouldn’t be surprised if quite a few people know exactly who it is. someone knows. wish i knew. i could use that reward money!
just a few thoughts, sorry i rambled. thanks.
April 6th, 2009 at: 6:51 pm
Comment # 53 by “T” : The male victim was shot behind the right ear.
So, as one possibility, visualize the victim driving along with the GS sitting in the passenger seat. The GS says to the victim, look over there to the left. The victim turns his head to look and the GS raises his gun and shoot the victim behind the right ear. Then, the GS opens the door & pushes the body out onto the street where it was later found. The GS then hops to the drivers seat & drives away.
But….. one thing that hasn’t been discussed much. Where is all the blood ??? The victims are all shot and a torso shot wouldn’t necessarily bleed that much but a head shot would.
April 7th, 2009 at: 7:45 am
He is the black Ted Bundy!
April 13th, 2009 at: 3:49 am
Gary has a point. GS’s only victime that lived advised LEO that after getting into the vehicle, the GS shot her in the chest. So if GS uses the vehicle to lure his victims but then shots them in the chest while they are inside the vehicle, then the pinto that was used in the 80’s must have traces of blood- a lot of blood!
April 15th, 2009 at: 3:32 am
I believe that man Thomas Steele or Grim Sleeper may be the anonymous caller.
{Theory 1} :Mr.Steele being the victum of the call he had made, why do I say this is obviouly because he must of seen Grim Sleeper when he was facing his back, than Thomas himself was shot to the back of him.
(Unless he was helping him in the slaying and wanted to change for the greater good.)
* See only how one man called, and only one man was murdered. And afterwords he resumed his slaying in woman.*
{Theory 2} : If grim sleeper made the call why was it only 30 minutes ago when he sound so calm and normal, and he knew too well about how he did it but left out details and his name. Practically he was having almost a good chat with the police.
{Theory 3} : If another man saw this why couldn’t he try to stop grim sleeper 30 or somewhat 25 minutes ago before he made the call to the L.A. Police.
I just thought I shared my thoughts on that. These maybe possible senarios but I have to think harder and the best I can.
April 15th, 2009 at: 11:25 pm
#62, Osa — the call is about victim 4, Barbara Ware. Mr. Steele had been dead for two years at that point, so we can be fairly sure it wasn’t him.
May 1st, 2009 at: 7:45 am
#48 Gary: I was reading up on the BTK killer, looking for comparisons to GS. BTK had a 13 year gap as well. But Radar was clearly an organized killer. He did a lot of planning. After he was arrested, he talked about the “x” factor. He said those who have it, ‘have’ to kill. I was left with the impression that serial killing may be hard wired into someone, in the same way that alcoholism is hard wired into the brain. Alcoholics can never be cured, but they can learn to control their disease. You quote another serial killer who says the same thing — that if released, he knows he would kill again, but he does not know why.
May 1st, 2009 at: 7:55 am
#59 - GS shoots TS while TS is behind the wheel driving? Wouldn’t the car go out of control when GS shot him? That’s an awful lot of maneuvering GS would have to do to accomplish all that without crashing the car. I see it more along the lines that they got into an argument, GS stopped the car, and TS got out on the passenger side. then GS got out too and walked around and popped TS. Left him right where he fell and drove off.
May 2nd, 2009 at: 6:12 am
The break came last October, when two officers collected DNA from Thomas as part of an ongoing process to swab registered sex offenders. On March 27, the California Department of Justice DNA Laboratory notified detectives that his DNA matched the evidence from the Sokoloff slaying.
On March 31, they were told that his DNA matched the four other slayings. He was arrested later that day. Thomas is being held at L.A. County Jail and could not be reached for comment.
Thomas’ comment should have been…I am 72 years old and thought I would die before the LAPD would bother to get a swab from me..what took them so Fcuking long??
Yes..I think John F. Thomas = Grim Sleeper !!
May 2nd, 2009 at: 6:14 am
… lead detective Dennis Kilcoyne estimates that “at least six of the 30 cases would be linked to the murderer”.
November 21st, 2009 at: 7:55 am
Some commentators mention a drawing that the police did in 1988? So the city puts up a billboard with the victims’ photos and they pledge a $500,000 reward, but they don’t put up a bill board with a drawing of the killer’s face?! That’s crazy. There are Wanted posters at every post office and they city can’t get their shit together and get this drawing out there where the public will see it? Richard Rodriguez aka The Nightstalker was recoginized in a drug store, chased and almost killed by an angry mob back in the day: his photo was in the news paper. The public can’t help if they don’t have every possible clue available to them. The killer’s features will not have changed since 1988 unless he’s had plastic surgery which is unlikely. So someone who sees the police drawing might recognize the killer. The victim deserve justice. They were black and some were drug users and prostitutes, but they deserve justic nonetheless. No one should get away with murder. Maybe it’s time to march down to City Hall or gather signatures? (I’m white by the way).
November 21st, 2009 at: 8:01 am
Some commentators mention a drawing that the police did in 1988? So the city puts up a billboard with the victims’ photos and they pledge a $500,000 reward, but they don’t put up a bil board with a drawing of the killer’s face?! That’s crazy. There are Wanted posters at every post office and yet the city can’t get their shit together and get that drawing out there where the public will see it? Richard Rodriguez aka The Nightstalker, the notorious L.A. area serial killer was recoginized in a drug store, chased and almost killed by an angry mob back in the day: his photo was in the news paper that day. The public can’t help out if they don’t have every possible clue available to them. The killer’s features will not have changed since 1988 unless he’s had plastic surgery which is very unlikely. So if we’re lucky someone who sees the police drawing might recognize the killer. The victims deserve justice. Some were drug users and prostitutes, but they deserve justice nonetheless. No one should get away with murder. Maybe it’s time to march down to City Hall or gather signatures? (I’m white by the way).
November 23rd, 2009 at: 12:57 am
Justice…Amen..well said.
November 23rd, 2009 at: 5:56 pm
I find it interesting that the LAPD releases a drawing just after a few of us on this site start calling for action! Coincidence? Were they worried we would show up at City Hall or at police headquarters downtown and demand action?
December 20th, 2009 at: 10:47 pm
I have enjoyed reading all the coments and hope that one of the investigators on the case will also that in to mind all yall
Good points. I agree the more the public knows the more we all can help . With that said I wanted to put in my two cents and say maybe the note was to worn who ever found the body to becareful for all the blood the the victim has aids . Just an idea !
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